Discussione:
regole di sillabazione
(troppo vecchio per rispondere)
Sigi
2007-10-10 17:57:46 UTC
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Come funzionano le regole di sillabazione in inglese?


Ad esempio, come si divide in sillabe "record"?


Grazie :)
--
SigiTM
Togli 'NOSPAMMM' per rispondermi.
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Joao do Sabao
2007-10-10 18:05:00 UTC
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Post by Sigi
Come funzionano le regole di sillabazione in inglese?
È così complesso e la casistica è così vasta, che non vale la pena
addentrarsi nella materia. :)
Comunque cerca syllabification su Google.
Post by Sigi
Ad esempio, come si divide in sillabe "record"?
rec-ord

Mentre invece, per dirne una, "bacon" si divide ba-con.
--
Tchau, -João do Sabão
Kiuhnm
2007-10-10 18:42:06 UTC
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Post by Sigi
Come funzionano le regole di sillabazione in inglese?
Good luck!

Kiuhnm
Enrico il Pentolaio
2007-10-10 20:39:01 UTC
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Post by Kiuhnm
Post by Sigi
Come funzionano le regole di sillabazione in inglese?
Good luck!
Io ho rinunciato da tempo a capirci qualcosa sulla divisione in sillabe. Tu
hai provato a studiarla?

Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
She's not worth it. Or is she?
Kiuhnm
2007-10-10 21:29:26 UTC
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Post by Enrico il Pentolaio
Io ho rinunciato da tempo a capirci qualcosa sulla divisione in sillabe.
Tu hai provato a studiarla?
I didn't even try :-)
Some time ago I replied to a post on this ng and gave this link:
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/book/BOOK-ED3.HTM
Unfortunately the link isn't valid anymore, but I clearly remember that
I skimmed through it and found out that even dictionaries have problems
reaching an agreement about particular words.

Wikipedia says (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen>):
"A definitive collection of hyphen rules does not exist. Therefore, the
writer or editor should consult a manual of style or dictionary of his
or her preference, particularly for the country in which he or she is
writing. The rules of style that apply to dashes and hyphens have
evolved to support ease of reading in complex constructions; editors
often accept deviations from them that will support, rather than hinder,
ease of reading."

Kiuhnm
Kiuhnm
2007-10-10 21:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kiuhnm
Unfortunately the link isn't valid anymore, but I clearly remember that
I skimmed through it and found out that even dictionaries have problems
reaching an agreement about particular words.
Ops... I modified the first part of the sentence at the last moment and
now it doesn't make sense anymore. I meant that I skimmed through the
/book/", not the /link/ :-)

Kiuhnm
Joao do Sabao
2007-10-10 23:37:54 UTC
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Post by Kiuhnm
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/book/BOOK-ED3.HTM
Unfortunately the link isn't valid anymore, but I clearly remember that
I skimmed through it and
The Wayback Machine (<http://web.archive.org/>) comes to rescue: that
web page can be viewed at <http://tinyurl.com/2ap5ng>.

Some very basic hints on syllabification (or syllabication) are here:
<http://tinyurl.com/yvuu6f>.
--
Tchau, -João do Sabão
lentulax
2007-10-11 00:32:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kiuhnm
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/book/BOOK-ED3.HTM
Unfortunately the link isn't valid anymore, but I clearly remember that I
skimmed through it and
The Wayback Machine (<http://web.archive.org/>) comes to rescue: that web
page can be viewed at <http://tinyurl.com/2ap5ng>.
<http://tinyurl.com/yvuu6f>.
I'm afraid the page you link to exhibits exactly the confusion I warned
against in the post I sent a minute ago ! You do NOT necessarily hyphenate
between syllables , as these are understood in English :
record : syllables re/cord ; hyphenated (if you must) rec-ord

Mike
Tony the Ice Man
2007-10-11 01:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by lentulax
I'm afraid the page you link to exhibits exactly the confusion I warned
against in the post I sent a minute ago ! You do NOT necessarily
record : syllables re/cord ; hyphenated (if you must) rec-ord
Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition

6.44 Most words should be divided according to pronunciation (the American
system, reflected in Webster), not according to derivation (the British
system):

democ-racy (not demo-cracy)
knowl-edge (not know-ledge)
aurif-erous (not auri-ferous)
antip-odes (still better antip-des, not anit-podes)

Consequently, words such as the following, in which the second "syllable"
contains only a silent e are never divided:

aimed helped spelled
climbed passed vexed

Nor are word endings...
[it continues]
lentulax
2007-10-11 13:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony the Ice Man
Post by lentulax
I'm afraid the page you link to exhibits exactly the confusion I warned
against in the post I sent a minute ago ! You do NOT necessarily
record : syllables re/cord ; hyphenated (if you must) rec-ord
Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition
6.44 Most words should be divided according to pronunciation (the American
system, reflected in Webster), not according to derivation (the British
democ-racy (not demo-cracy)
knowl-edge (not know-ledge)
aurif-erous (not auri-ferous)
antip-odes (still better antip-des, not anit-podes)
Consequently, words such as the following, in which the second "syllable"
aimed helped spelled
climbed passed vexed
Nor are word endings...
[it continues]
You're quite right , of course , to point out that foreigners need to know
that the American and British systems of hyphenation are different in the
way you describe (allowing for the fact that derivation , though the first
principle , isn't the only consideration in the British system) .

My point was that reference to 'syllables' is confusing , as is talk about
'written' and 'spoken' syllables ; if 'written syllables' are the parts
into which when necessary a word may be divided by a hyphen , then to say
that a hyphen is placed between syllables is merely tautologous , unless by
'syllable' you mean 'spoken syllable' - in which case it is unhelpful and
often simply wrong , at least in Brit English . So , when you say the
Americans divide according to pronunciation , does that mean the same as
'according to the spoken syllables' (syllabification) or not ? If so , can
you explain the American system of syllabification (i.e. dividing words into
phonetic syllables ) . In the UK , for example , the words you quote would
be syllabified thus : an-ti-po-des /au-ri-fe-rous / re-cord (whether noun or
verb) , climbed etc. (That is , in simplified terms , a syllable is a
vowel-sound (ie non-mute) with one or more consonants attached ; initial
consonants go with the succeeding vowel ; single consonants between vowels
go with the following vowel ; two consonants between vowels split between
the preceding and following vowel) .Obviously in British English hyphenation
based on the meaning-units which make up a word will often naturally
coincide with syllabification , but in many cases that isn't the case , and
therefore any reference to 'dividing according to syllable divisions' is at
best unhelpful and unnecessary and at worst simply wrong . Presumably ,
either you in America have a different way of dividing words into (phonetic)
syllables , so that in 'antipodes' the
'p' is heard as the coda of the second syllable and not the onset of the
third , or it is also true for you that syllabification is not a guide to
hyphenation (antip-odes) .

Both the American and the British systems of hyphenation have the same aim ,
to facilitate prediction , and I certainly wouldn't want to suggest one is
better than the other - I dare say they're coming closer anyway . I just
think that any account of hyphenation systems which uses 'syllables' as a
criterion for placing of the hyphen is simply muddying the waters for
non-native speakers .

Mike
Kiuhnm
2007-10-11 10:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joao do Sabao
The Wayback Machine (<http://web.archive.org/>) comes to rescue: that
web page can be viewed at <http://tinyurl.com/2ap5ng>.
Amazing!
Post by Joao do Sabao
<http://tinyurl.com/yvuu6f>.
Thanks, I'll give it a look.

Kiuhnm
Joseph Curtin
2007-10-11 15:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kiuhnm
Post by Enrico il Pentolaio
Io ho rinunciato da tempo a capirci qualcosa sulla divisione in sillabe.
Tu hai provato a studiarla?
I didn't even try :-)
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/book/BOOK-ED3.HTM
Unfortunately the link isn't valid anymore, but I clearly remember that
I skimmed through it and found out that even dictionaries have problems
reaching an agreement about particular words.
"A definitive collection of hyphen rules does not exist. Therefore, the
writer or editor should consult a manual of style or dictionary of his
or her preference, particularly for the country in which he or she is
writing. The rules of style that apply to dashes and hyphens have
evolved to support ease of reading in complex constructions; editors
often accept deviations from them that will support, rather than hinder,
ease of reading."
I agree that syllabification is not an important part of language learning,
but neither is hyphenation. Hyphenation is not a linguistic tool, but a
publishing tool, and is useful because it conserves space in printed matter.
Publishers use software to hyphenate material before printing. Its purpose
is to conserve space, while facilitating reading. Even word processors such
as M$ Word and Open Office use software to apply hyphenation "rules" to
documents.
http://packages.debian.org/sid/openoffice.org-hyphenation-it

Joe from Massachusetts
Joseph Curtin
2007-10-11 15:50:53 UTC
Permalink
"Joseph Curtin" <***@cox.net> wrote in message news:pArPi.18899$***@newsfe22.lga...
Even word processors such
as M$ Word and Open Office use software to apply hyphenation "rules" to
documents.
http://packages.debian.org/sid/openoffice.org-hyphenation-it
It should be noted that the hyphenation software in both M$ Word and Open
Office is different for UK and US English.

Joe from Massachusetts
lentulax
2007-10-11 00:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sigi
Come funzionano le regole di sillabazione in inglese?
Ad esempio, come si divide in sillabe "record"?
What do you mean in English by 'sillabazione' - 'syllabification' or
'hyphenation' ? The latter may be more complex , but the first thing to note
is that it has very little to do with the former , syllabification being
dependent on sound and hyphenation largely on meaning .

Mike
Enrico il Pentolaio
2007-10-11 18:30:47 UTC
Permalink
"lentulax" ha scritto nel messaggio
Post by lentulax
What do you mean in English by 'sillabazione' - 'syllabification' or
'hyphenation' ? The latter may be more complex , but the first thing to
note is that it has very little to do with the former , syllabification
being dependent on sound and hyphenation largely on meaning .
Argh! Peggio di quanto pensassi! So what's the difference in usage between
those two?
Thanks!

Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
She's not worth it. Or is she?
lentulax
2007-10-11 20:10:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enrico il Pentolaio
"lentulax" ha scritto nel messaggio
Post by lentulax
What do you mean in English by 'sillabazione' - 'syllabification' or
'hyphenation' ? The latter may be more complex , but the first thing to
note is that it has very little to do with the former , syllabification
being dependent on sound and hyphenation largely on meaning .
Argh! Peggio di quanto pensassi! So what's the difference in usage between
those two?
Not peggio at all ! Hopefully my other post will have explained more fully
what I mean ; but as Joe from Massachusetts says elsewhere , hyphenation is
just a publishing tool ; if a word has to be split between lines owing to
extra-linguistic constraints , what's the best place to split it ? The
answer has nothing to do with syllables (or at least any reference to
syllables will confuse and mislead rather than help) - it's a matter of
which split (consistent with the constraints mentioned) least interrupts the
flow of meaning , best enables the reader to anticipate the continuation
postponed to the next line , and so facilitates speedier comprehension : if
I split 'bi-' I am likely to 'hear' a rhyme with 'eye' and to understand it
as the prefix meaning 'two' (maybe 'bi-polar') whereas it would be ludicrous
to split 'bilberry' as 'bi-lberry' rather than 'bil-berry'. If you read
'It's a mystery now , but all will be revealed in the fu-' that's not too
helpful ; 'in the fut-' you'd almost certainly anticipate correctly ; 'in
the full-' would immediately be read by a native speaker as 'in the fullness
of time' (what else could it be?) Often the most desirable split will be
between the parts of which a word is compounded (obviously so with prefixes
, suffixes etc.) ; and this principle , extended to the root-sources from
which a word may derive , is more of a basic habit with us than with the
Americans . In both cases , systems of hyphenation are flexible , and have
the same essential aims - from which it's possible to derive the detailed
sorts of guidelines referred to elsewhere (and in none of these need the
word 'syllable' appear) . The 'rules' are basically common-sense : there
isn't really a rule that 'the bit before the hyphen should be at least 3
letters , with the following exceptions...' ; common-sense tells you that
two-letter prefixes are meaningful units which may usefully be followed by a
hyphen , but that splitting off the first two letters of a word beginning
'st-' is simply silly . Common-sense tells you that if you split 'lemonade'
, the best option is 'lemon-ade' ; if you're absolutely driven to it ,
'lem-onade' ; nothing else . And so on...

Though some of you have said you've found the 'rules' difficult , I'll bet
that in practice you don't find many problems (and probably no more
uncertainties than any native speaker) . 'Rules' are only needed in the case
of publications which require all their writers to maintain a rigid house
style .

Mike

Mike
Enrico il Pentolaio
2007-10-14 14:29:59 UTC
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"lentulax" ha scritto nel messaggio
Post by lentulax
Not peggio at all ! Hopefully my other post will have explained more fully
what I mean ; but as Joe from Massachusetts says elsewhere , hyphenation
is just a publishing tool ; [...]
Grazie mille per la spiegazione.
;-)

Ciao,
Enrico il Pentolaio.
--
She's not worth it. Or is she?
Tony the Ice Man
2007-10-11 01:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sigi
Come funzionano le regole di sillabazione in inglese?
Ad esempio, come si divide in sillabe "record"?
Si può vederlo nel vocabulario. Dipende dalla pronunzia. La parola 'record'
può essere un verbo o un sostantivo (o un aggettivo). La pronuncia è diverse
per il verbo dunque lo si divide in modo diverse.

v. re/cord
s. rec/ord

Per scrivere in inglese americano, si divide la parola all'estremità della
riga (con un trattino) secondo la pronuncia. È diverse in Inghilterra.
Kiuhnm
2007-10-11 11:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony the Ice Man
Si può vederlo nel vocabulario. Dipende dalla pronunzia. La parola 'record'
può essere un verbo o un sostantivo (o un aggettivo). La pronuncia è diverse
pronuncia <-> diversA
Post by Tony the Ice Man
per il verbo dunque lo si divide in modo diverse.
modo <-> diversO
Post by Tony the Ice Man
v. re/cord
s. rec/ord
Per scrivere in inglese americano, si divide la parola all'estremità della
riga (con un trattino) secondo la pronuncia. È diverse in Inghilterra.
We use "diversO", in this case.

Kiuhnm
Lorents
2007-10-10 22:35:11 UTC
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Post by Sigi
Come funzionano le regole di sillabazione in inglese?
Non funzionano: non dividere in sillabe, a meno che non sia
strettamente necessario :-)
In linea di massima si dovrebbero dividere in base a come si pronunciano,
in modo che ogni sillaba abbia all'incirca la stessa pronuncia
che nella parola completa (ma questo non e' sempre possibile cmq).
Vedi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabification
Post by Sigi
Ad esempio, come si divide in sillabe "record"?
Boh. Come verbo direi re-cord ; come nome rec-ord
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