Discussione:
in fact
(troppo vecchio per rispondere)
Myotis
2004-09-11 16:37:29 UTC
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Bù

Scusate ma avrei bisogno di un chiarimento riguardo "in fact"

Mi e' stato detto che è preferibile non usarlo con il significato di
"infatti" perche' avrebbe in realta' il significato di "invero" e potrebbe
risultare forviante... :?
Eppure mi pare usato con il primo significato :/
Mi sapreste dire quale sarebbe il significato corretto di tale espressione?

Ciao e grazie

Alessandro

PS: esistono delle FAQ di questo newsgroup?
Joey Dee
2004-09-11 17:25:05 UTC
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Post by Myotis
Bù
Scusate ma avrei bisogno di un chiarimento riguardo "in fact"
Mi e' stato detto che è preferibile non usarlo con il significato di
"infatti" perche' avrebbe in realta' il significato di "invero" e potrebbe
risultare forviante... :?
Eppure mi pare usato con il primo significato :/
Mi sapreste dire quale sarebbe il significato corretto di tale espressione?
Ciao e grazie
Alessandro
PS: esistono delle FAQ di questo newsgroup?
My Italian isn't good enough to discern the difference between "infatti"
and "invero" :( but it seems to me that "in fact" means both of those
things: "in realtà", per esempio.

"I thought the meeting was this morning, when in fact it was yesterday
morning."

"Are you working for the bank?"
"No. In fact, I left the bank years ago."
--
Pear pea a chair, Ray. Core Reggie eel me oh eat alien, oh... :)
Joey DoWop, working on a temporary account.
Lapo
2004-09-11 18:14:06 UTC
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Post by Joey Dee
My Italian isn't good enough to discern the difference between "infatti"
and "invero" :( but it seems to me that "in fact" means both of those
things: "in realtà", per esempio.
In italian "Infatti" is something similar to "for instance, for example". It
is used to report *facts* corroborating previous statements. Infatti
introduces the proof of which previously stated.

"Invero" is more assimilable to "invece". It implies an opposition. "Invero"
restores truth after a mistaken affirmation.
Post by Joey Dee
"I thought the meeting was this morning, when in fact it was yesterday
morning."
In this case an italian would have not used "Infatti". An italian would have
used "invece" or "invero" (even though "invero" is a rarer word).
Post by Joey Dee
"Are you working for the bank?"
"No. In fact, I left the bank years ago."
In this case too an italian would have not used "Infatti".

Your exemples were very useful. Now I know that "in fact" usage is very
different from italian "infatti".
jonny
2004-09-11 19:00:21 UTC
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Post by Lapo
Post by Joey Dee
My Italian isn't good enough to discern the difference between "infatti"
and "invero" :( but it seems to me that "in fact" means both of those
things: "in realtà", per esempio.
In italian "Infatti" is something similar to "for instance, for example". It
is used to report *facts* corroborating previous statements. Infatti
introduces the proof of which previously stated.
"Invero" is more assimilable to "invece". It implies an opposition. "Invero"
restores truth after a mistaken affirmation.
Post by Joey Dee
"I thought the meeting was this morning, when in fact it was yesterday
morning."
In this case an italian would have not used "Infatti". An italian would have
used "invece" or "invero" (even though "invero" is a rarer word).
Post by Joey Dee
"Are you working for the bank?"
"No. In fact, I left the bank years ago."
In this case too an italian would have not used "Infatti".
Your exemples were very useful. Now I know that "in fact" usage is very
different from italian "infatti".
I always believed it to mean "in fact" as well up until recently, then
I read a passage entitled "false friends" from a book I have.

Quote:
"Infatti" is frequently used by Italians when agreeing with something
someone has said. It means "Indeed" rather than "in fact" which is "in
effetti", "in realtà".

It goes on to list other "false friends", words in Italian that
resemble English words but have a different meaning.

attualmente - at present
largo - wide
morbido - soft
fattoria - farm
.. many more.
Lapo
2004-09-11 19:57:59 UTC
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Post by jonny
It goes on to list other "false friends", words in Italian that
resemble English words but have a different meaning.
attualmente - at present
Yes, this is a typical italian error. It can easily generate
misunderstandings.

Another very important false friend is "eventually".
I was incredibly surprised when I discovered that in English it means
"finally, in the end ".
"Eventualmente" in Italian always means " in case, by chance, or in the
hypotetical case"

Lapo
FB
2004-09-11 19:35:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lapo
In italian "Infatti" is something similar to "for instance, for example".
Is it?
Post by Lapo
It is used to report *facts* corroborating previous statements. Infatti
introduces the proof of which previously stated.
You're right there.

"in fact" ==> "invero", "in verità"

"In fact I'm going right there" ==> "Ci sto andando proprio ora"
(traduzione molto personale, ma è l'impressione che mi fa la frase nel suo
insieme)

"indeed" ==> "infatti", "davvero", "proprio così"


Bye, FB
--
Se dico "siedi!" manca l'oggetto.
Siedo chi? Lei o me?
(da it.cultura.linguistica.italiano)
jonny
2004-09-11 19:46:38 UTC
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Post by FB
"indeed" ==> "infatti", "davvero", "proprio così"
Nothing to do with the subject at hand but can you tell me the English
equivalent of "proprio questo"? Someone was looking for a URL, I gave
them the URL and the reply was just "proprio questo".
Lapo
2004-09-11 20:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonny
Post by FB
"indeed" ==> "infatti", "davvero", "proprio così"
Nothing to do with the subject at hand but can you tell me the English
equivalent of "proprio questo"? Someone was looking for a URL, I gave
them the URL and the reply was just "proprio questo".
Yep.
"Grazie mille, stavo cercando proprio questo URL !!".

"Proprio questo" is slightly different from "Proprio così".
Obviously "Proprio così" means "exactly in this way", or if you are
replaying to a statement and you want to underscore your agreement you can
say:
"Proprio così"
FB
2004-09-11 20:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by jonny
Post by FB
"indeed" ==> "infatti", "davvero", "proprio così"
Nothing to do with the subject at hand but can you tell me the English
equivalent of "proprio questo"? Someone was looking for a URL, I gave
them the URL and the reply was just "proprio questo".
"Proprio questo (url)" ==> "exactly that (url)/that very url"


Bye, FB
--
"What meaning of this, Mitter Twain?". "I will tell you, Mr Wang, if you
can tell me why a man who possesses one of the most brilliant minds of this
century can't say his prepositions or articles".
(Murder by Death)
Lapo
2004-09-11 20:14:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by FB
Post by Lapo
In italian "Infatti" is something similar to "for instance, for example".
Is it?
Yes, an example give to demonstrate something.
"L'ipertesto ha molti vantaggi sul testo cartaceo. Infatti, puoi partire da
qualsiasi
punto e raggiungere qualsiasi altro punto".
This was an example of hypertexts' benefits. But it isn't the only one. You
could add more.
So you could write :
"L'ipertesto ha molti vantaggi sul testo cartaceo. Ad esempio puoi partire
da qualsiasi
punto e raggiungere qualsiasi altro punto".

Anyhow is not always possible this substitution.
Post by FB
Post by Lapo
It is used to report *facts* corroborating previous statements. Infatti
introduces the proof of which previously stated.
You're right there.
"in fact" ==> "invero", "in verità"
"In fact I'm going right there" ==> "Ci sto andando proprio ora"
(traduzione molto personale, ma è l'impressione che mi fa la frase nel suo
insieme)
"indeed" ==> "infatti", "davvero", "proprio così"
Joey Dee
2004-09-11 21:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lapo
Post by FB
Post by Lapo
In italian "Infatti" is something similar to "for instance, for
example".
Post by FB
Is it?
Yes, an example give to demonstrate something.
"L'ipertesto ha molti vantaggi sul testo cartaceo. Infatti, puoi partire da
qualsiasi
punto e raggiungere qualsiasi altro punto".
This was an example of hypertexts' benefits. But it isn't the only one. You
could add more.
"L'ipertesto ha molti vantaggi sul testo cartaceo. Ad esempio puoi partire
da qualsiasi
punto e raggiungere qualsiasi altro punto".
Anyhow is not always possible this substitution.
Post by FB
Post by Lapo
It is used to report *facts* corroborating previous statements. Infatti
introduces the proof of which previously stated.
You're right there.
"in fact" ==> "invero", "in verità"
"In fact I'm going right there" ==> "Ci sto andando proprio ora"
(traduzione molto personale, ma è l'impressione che mi fa la frase nel suo
insieme)
"indeed" ==> "infatti", "davvero", "proprio così"
Grazie a tutti! Avete chiarito l'uso di quel termine che, come ha detto
Jonny, è un false friend.
--
Pear pea a chair, Ray. Core Reggie eel me oh eat alien, oh... :)
Joey DoWop, working on a temporary account.
FB
2004-09-11 21:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lapo
Post by FB
Post by Lapo
In italian "Infatti" is something similar to "for instance, for
example".
Post by FB
Is it?
Yes, an example give to demonstrate something.
"L'ipertesto ha molti vantaggi sul testo cartaceo. Infatti, puoi partire da
qualsiasi
punto e raggiungere qualsiasi altro punto".
This was an example of hypertexts' benefits. But it isn't the only one. You
could add more.
To my way of thinking, "infatti puoi partire..." means "to prove what I've
just said, ..."; it doesn't mean "for instance".
Post by Lapo
"L'ipertesto ha molti vantaggi sul testo cartaceo. Ad esempio puoi partire
da qualsiasi
punto e raggiungere qualsiasi altro punto".
That sentence is spot-on, yet not equivalent, as far as my knowledge of
Italian is concerned, to the one above. What do the other native Italian
speakers say?
Post by Lapo
Post by FB
You're right there.
"in fact" ==> "invero", "in verità"
"In fact I'm going right there" ==> "Ci sto andando proprio ora"
(traduzione molto personale, ma è l'impressione che mi fa la frase nel suo
insieme)
"indeed" ==> "infatti", "davvero", "proprio così"
I should also point out that "in fact" to translate "infatti" is not always
wrong: see www.garzantilinguistica.it for it.


Bye, FB
--
"Is this Miss Prism a female of repellent aspect, remotely connected with
education?" "She is the most cultivated of ladies, and the very picture of
respectability." "It is obviously the same person."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde)
Lapo
2004-09-11 22:24:35 UTC
Permalink
"FB" ha scritto
Post by FB
To my way of thinking, "infatti puoi partire..." means "to prove what I've
just said, ..."; it doesn't mean "for instance".
It is right
Post by FB
Post by Lapo
In italian "Infatti" is something similar to "for instance, for example
It is something similar, but "Infatti" has something different : "infatti"
is used to introduce a proof, on the contrary "Per esempio" not necessarily
introduces a proof.

Only in particular cases, when you use "Per esempio" to give a proof, it is
acceptable to substitute "Per esempio" with "Infatti", because you grasp
from the context that this example is a proof.
Fabio [Area 6+2.1]
2004-09-12 07:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lapo
It is something similar, but "Infatti" has something different : "infatti"
is used to introduce a proof, on the contrary "Per esempio" not necessarily
introduces a proof.
Quando devo usare "infatti" con quella accezione, di solito uso "as a matter
of fact".
Altrimenti uso "indeed", anche se non mi e' ancora chiarissimo il suo
utilizzo.
Ciao
Fabio
Enrico il Pentolaio
2004-09-13 18:03:26 UTC
Permalink
"Fabio [Area 6+2.1]" ha scritto nel messaggio
Post by Fabio [Area 6+2.1]
Quando devo usare "infatti" con quella accezione, di solito uso "as a matter
of fact".
Ma "as a matter of fact" non voleva dire "actually"?


Tschüss,
Enrico il Pentolaio
--
(visita il mio sito: http://members.xoom.it/srw)
_____________________________________
"L'estate era alle porte e mia sorella alla finestra." (Alessandro
Bergonzoni)
Fabio [Area 6+2.1]
2004-09-13 21:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enrico il Pentolaio
"Fabio [Area 6+2.1]" ha scritto nel messaggio
Post by Fabio [Area 6+2.1]
Quando devo usare "infatti" con quella accezione, di solito uso "as a
matter
Post by Fabio [Area 6+2.1]
of fact".
Ma "as a matter of fact" non voleva dire "actually"?
Se sia sinonimo di actually non lo so, ma sicuramente viene utilizzato come
l'italiano "infatti" quando devi introdurre un elemento esplicativo
aggiuntivo alla frase precedente.
Ciao
Fabio
Ice
2004-09-12 15:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joey Dee
My Italian isn't good enough to discern the difference between "infatti"
and "invero" :(
mine neither :)
(or nor mine? I'm a little confused)
Joey Dee
2004-09-12 16:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ice
Post by Joey Dee
My Italian isn't good enough to discern the difference between "infatti"
and "invero" :(
mine neither :)
(or nor mine? I'm a little confused)
Either (to add to the confusion...:)

In order of my preference:

Mine isn't either.
Nor mine.
Mine neither.
--
Pear pea a chair, Ray. Core Reggie eel me oh eat alien, oh... :)
Joey DoWop, working on a temporary account.
Ice
2004-09-12 16:27:35 UTC
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Post by Joey Dee
Either (to add to the confusion...:)
me smacks forehead :)
Post by Joey Dee
Mine isn't either.
Nor mine.
Mine neither.
fortunately they're both correct :)
thanks Joey
Enrico C
2004-10-03 11:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Joey Dee | it.cultura.linguistica.inglese
Post by Joey Dee
it seems to me that "in fact" means both of those
things: "in realtà", per esempio.
BTW, c'e` differenza tra "in fact" e "in actual fact", o il secondo e
solo un modo di rafforzare il concetto?
Joey DoWop Dee
2004-10-03 13:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enrico C
BTW, c'e` differenza tra "in fact" e "in actual fact", o il secondo e
solo un modo di rafforzare il concetto?
Solo rafforzativo, direi.

--"We all expected the race to end quickly, and in fact it ended almost
before it began."
--"In actual fact, it almost never started!"
--
If you feel the need to e-mail me, un-not my address first.
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